tee drills

[emo]

Baseball casting went well. Mini Tee went well. Having trouble with Double Tee. I am using Fowl Dawg program. He will run the back pile at 100 yards ok, but when I put the " overs" out he doesn't want to run past the overs. he will veer off to the over pile. I am trying to shorten the distance to the first over pile. Any other advice? He will sit on the whistle and take the back command when there are no overs, but the overs are killin us.

[BucksandDucks]

Set out the bumpers for the overs and send for the back pile. If he caves to the over piles, just move up and shorten the distance to the back pile. He will pick it up with repetitions.

[Duck Chaser]

agree, should improve with time and repitition, but may have to simplify. The few dogs I've run through it have been different in the time and effort it took to get it. Recently had one w/ the same issues running by/splitting over piles. While you want to recognize and work through 'lack of effort' type issues in TT, this type confusion isn't that. imo, the dog needs a lil help, as in i.d. the pile you want. If your sessions have been bad rough, might run one where you i.d. everything you cast for, to improve attitude. Next I would consider orange only for overs, white back pile (temporarily), put out before you get the dog. i.d. pile and send, whatever you can do to get headed the right direction, then wean off it. At this stage my rule of thumb was 2 casts, then help. ie., Say you send for back pile, dog takes line then veers to over, sit/cast, thats #2.. he either takes that back to pile and we're good, or he doesn't and I sit/i.d. the pile/re-cast. 2 PIL/callbacks, same thing.. Some things that helped one get past that anyway. good luck..

[emo]

thanks for the input. I shortened the distance and marked the pile and did better. hopefully he will pick up from there. I usually don"t have any help training and I can't throw a bumper 100 yards. Should I get someone to help mark the long back pile or stay short and gradually move back?

[mharville]

I may be crucified for saying this on here, but one thing i used WHEN STARTING pile and t work was to put a white bucket, pole, or cone at the pile. Gives a young dog something to focus on. Obviously you do need to work your dog away from these things, but it can be helpful in the beginning.

[CF]

How stupid mharville...I can't believe you would type such a thing!!!

[EvanG]

I've said it many times before, and I'm sure I'll say it many more times; if your dog needs something white to run to in pile work, he has not be adequately forced. Start close, back up incrementally, and make sure you support your force training by extending it as needed. It's the core of momentum.

EvanG

[CF]

..and when I see you next I'm gonna kick you in the pills...

[CF]

ok...mharville I am not going to kick you in the pills the next time I see you...

however...I got to thinking about this further and decided to come back and revisit this thread...


Evan...I have a question regarding your statement..."if your dog needs something white to run to in pile work, he has not be adequately forced"

...sounds like you are teaching a dog to run from and not to something (bumper or duck)...I know that "force" is required to adaquetley train a finished dog but in early stages of dog work is not ok to "teach" a dog to run to something i.e a cone or blind pole or flag (visual aid)...

...not sure if this is worded right but I just got to thinking about this further and decided to come back to the topic...anyway what are your thoughts...

[mharville]

ok...mharville I am not going to kick you in the pills the next time I see you...

Thank you, i was out tryin to buy a cup. You're a big fella and a kick in the pills from you could definitely cause some testicular torsion!

[EvanG]

Evan...I have a question regarding your statement..."if your dog needs something white to run to in pile work, he has not be adequately forced"

...sounds like you are teaching a dog to run from and not to something (bumper or duck)...

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. And we aren't really at odds here. Let me say first that the teaching of blind running begins with the dog running to white bumpers because that makes them an obvious visual target. The dog is, in that situation, running to white. That brings us to the next part of your question.

I know that "force" is required to adaquetley train a finished dog but in early stages of dog work is not ok to "teach" a dog to run to something i.e a cone or blind pole or flag (visual aid)...

It occurs through the progression of our work in Basics that the dog does, indeed, begin to run "from" every bit as much as he's running "to". What we're building is momentum; not style (although we all hope to retain as much as possible), but real momentum. Once the dog has completed a full course of forcing he should go whether or not he has the security of knowing his destination or not. That's what a blind retrieve is.

...not sure if this is worded right but I just got to thinking about this further and decided to come back to the topic...anyway what are your thoughts...

I like the way you worded it because it gives me a good opportunity to separate our objectives for teaching from our goals in formal training, which includes force.

EvanG

[T-Bone]

Baseball casting went well. Mini Tee went well. Having trouble with Double Tee. I am using Fowl Dawg program. He will run the back pile at 100 yards ok, but when I put the " overs" out he doesn't want to run past the overs. he will veer off to the over pile. I am trying to shorten the distance to the first over pile. Any other advice? He will sit on the whistle and take the back command when there are no overs, but the overs are killin us.

First of all I think we are getting away from the OP training question and I might be missing it as well but here is what I get from what you have explained and my attempt to help.

Initial thoughts is that you have gone to fast and not properly forced your dog on your cast and have skipped some steps along the way and/or not completely completed some steps. To borrow a statement from who knows where...it is like building a brick wall without the mortar to hold the bricks together. If you build a wall and forget to put mortar btween some bricks sooner or later that wall will have problems and have a few holes in it. A dog has to know why he is taking your cast...... he has to take your cast whether an over or back cast or initial cast from your side not because he gets to pick up a bumper at the end of that cast(sure that is the end result) but because that is what he was trained/told/forced to do... period!

"trying to shorten the distance to the first over pile". I am not sure what you mean by this statement other than you are moving up on your line therefore shortening the distance to your back pile or actually moving your over piles in closer to your center line. If it is the later then your are creating more suction to hte side piles by moving them in. Also you say "baseball casting and mini tee went well but having trouble with DT". IF your dog is not taking an over cast even after simplifying ie attrition, moving closer & to side of desired cast to to gain control and and/or id'ing you need to back up to your miniT or baseball drill in a smaller more controlled environment. I am wondering if you skipped the Single T with only one apex and did not completely establish your back pile(which is the crux of this drill) with only 2 over piles and simplify as needed per steps listed above instead of jumping to DT with 4 over piles? If so I can see where your dog might be confused. He went from looking out and seeing one back pile to 5 white piles of bumpers. This confusion is why some skip the ST and DT all together.

I am of the belief that you must make it black and white for the dog in these early stages to avoid ANY confusion. For example and in my experience on ST and DT after you have stopped your dog at apex in ST and gave your first rt over cast you can almost bet that fido on the next send to back pile is going to veer toward that right over pile that he just came from. So to make it black & white, on that next send after that 1st rt over cast, move up to the apex and send to back pile from there to avoid any initial confusion and gradually move back to your origial line and start over. Then get your rt over cast if you can (be ready for a dig back especially if been properly forced on rt & lt backs) whistle sit... move up and over and cast again or maybe even id the pile(read your dog). just my 2 cents.

As far as using a visual aid to ID a pile I personally have not. Always tried to have T-field on football soccer field type grass or even mowed a spot where bumper plie could easily be seen from line so essentially it is a big ol' white bucket of white bumpers on the ground. I also made my initial over piles sort of obscure like putting out only 2-3 bumpers on over piles and 12-15 bumpers on back pile to make it more inviting and adjusted accordingly as dog progressed to created suction where needed. I never used orange bumpers on side piles ither because I feel like that its part of the progression of go as sent and not cave into factors/distactions of where he just came from or that one is closer ...right turn.

But I say all that and say this...."TRAIN YOU DOG"...if that means white buckets are needed to create momentum then by all means use white buckets. There is more that one way to skin a cat!!!!

[B3]

Along the lines of T bones post. I would be worried your over piles are too close to the center line. I put mine way out so they are long overs. Short overs can turn TT into a 3 pile lining drill and this is not what you are trying to accomplish.

This small thing in setup of TT can create big problems......you may want to look at it and see if your overs are too short

Bill

[EvanG]

Along the lines of T bones post. I would be worried your over piles are too close to the center line. I put mine way out so they are long overs. Short overs can turn TT into a 3 pile lining drill and this is not what you are trying to accomplish.

This small thing in setup of TT can create big problems......you may want to look at it and see if your overs are too short

Bill

I agree with this line of thinking. One of the commonest questions I get about land T work is in regard to dogs being drawn toward Over piles while en route to the Back pile. Nearly always it's an easy fix to simply make those Over piles further off center line. 25 yards is often a safe minimum. But 30-40 yards is even better.

With regard to the use of white markers; do as you like. But if your intent is to train the dog, rather than merely trick them into acts that look like trained functions, then train the dog. If your dog is far enough along in Basics to be running TT he's force fetched, and that means he'll run to any pre-identified pile - marker or no marker. Your training does need to move forward in order to be correctly categorized as progress.

EvanG

[emo]

thanks for responses. alot to think about for a beginner. bottom line is I have gone to a single T and the dog is doing well with that. about to start double T. Tried to do too much to quick. I have been following Fowl Dawgs series. He went from mini T to double T. Maybe I didn't stay on mini T long enough. Either way the long single T has helped. Again I am new at this too.