Did you kill many birds this year? Do you know why?
This is the Third year that I have read continued complaints of there being no birds in this area.
The last two years I saw zillions of ducks. I mean crap loads of ducks. This year not jack. I am not convinced the duck numbers are anywhere near what the USF&WS have postulated.
So many ducks, so little time....
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RedEyed Duck
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Benny, I'll try to answer based on what I gathered from the post (Great post by the way Travis). I think what he is saying is that the species of duck that goes (migrates) to S LA is different from those that we generally shoot here in AR, MS and TN. Therefore the species that generally migrate to S LA might have an overwhelming urge to migrate sooner than the mallards that we persue. That definitely holds true in my experience as the majority of the birds that they shoot on the coast are pintails, greys, teal and other whistling ducks. The area that I hunted in this year Central Eastern AR, was full of spoonies, something that we had never seen before. We never got the concentrations of mallards like in years past, I can't explain that with the exception of the weather and the lack of need for the "normal" birds to be forced to migrate. We never have concertrations of spoonies in our area after the first weekend or two, and not only did they not leave but they continued to multiply. I can't explain it but I certainly am enjoying the conversation, keep it coming.
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goosebruce
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Thats exactly what Im saying.
Banding data backs it up.
Its easier to see with dark geese, than with lite geese or ducks, but its certainly evident there too.
Dark geese populations are micro managed, for that very reason. Because certain breeding populations winter certain places. So if saskatewan numbers of lessers is good, but the james bay area did poorly, then they change the rules (seasons, limits, quotas) where needed, and vice versea. Easy to do with a small number of birds, and colored neck bands, harder to do with ducks so they generalize.
South LA will have ducks no matter what. If we never have a drop of water, or a bit of food. If we are perfect habitiat condtions and no hunting. South LA will get theirs... and its totally not dependent on anything we have here. Totally. They get their ducks before we get ours. Heck, look when their season opens, a week to 2 weeks BEFORE arkansass. Thats not an accident. There is a population of ducks, from certain locations made up of certain indivuals and certain speicies that winter there. The timing and magnatiude of the migration there is effected by forces unique to that area. The timing and magnatiude of migrtation here, or lack of, is NOT related to south la in any shape, form, or fashion.
If ducks never make it to MO in dec, they obviously aint gonna make it to AR or MS. Because those ducks, that are migrating in winter, came from a certain area, and expect to go to a certain area, and these areas (breeding and wintering) while tradationally the same, obviously change over time. The ppr region of the us is slowly growing a higher percentage of our ducks compared to prarie canada because of things like percipation averages and crp programs. Over time, this changes slightly to a lot where ducks are bred and rasied. Just like in the south, crowder is now holding as many ducks as stutgartt... MO & OK is now holding more ducks than they used too.. the magnets arent as strong, and their are more areas pulling these birds. But, by and large, ducks that winter in the middle ms and central flyways are ducks that come from certain areas, fly south along certain paths, and are certain numbers and sepeices tradationally.
Flyways are not tracks. Flyways are not even real. Flyways are a way for us to see where large populations of birds leave from and go to. They dont fly over the ms river watching for barge lites and navagtional becons, looking for my farm. They fly in the low spots, looking for areas they tradationally winter in. If you where to kill a duck in a particualr spot on the first day of the season, and to kill another duck the last day of the season, odds are those 2 ducks shared a remarkabley similar upbringing and migration, as far as from where the orignated from, and what triggers sent them tumbling. The chances of one of those ducks being lost from chesapeake bay, or missing their friends in west texas, is rare. Cuase they are from a general population of birds that grow in one general place, migrate in general terms, and winter in a general place.
Ever wonder why pintails usually are like 10 to 1 drakes to hens? And blackjack are like 30 to 1 drakes to hens? Cause the drakes and hens migrate at different times. Yet they all hook back up. Think theres a bunch of hard dickked ducks flying round, or they got plans?
Ducks do get lost, and make weird migrations. Band data shows that. But it also shows its the expection, not the rule.
This is the very same reason that mexican duck limits of 15 dont make one iota of difference. Becuase they are hunting a population of ducks that dont have any other hunting pressure on them, they can stand that kind of hammering. They dont get hammered all the way down to mexico... they go to mexico. Aint like some years are more wet in mexico either is it? They are ducks that winter in mexico.. its that simple. Pintails, redheads, blackjack, and some ducks that don't migrate. Buit they arent are pintails, and if they didnt kill a single one, we wouldsnt have a single one more in the air.
In the simplest terms, if you knew where the ducks on your hole typically come from, you would know where to watch for rain in the spring on the national weather map. Cuase the ducks from farmers brown marsh in north dakota, are geneneticcaly influenced to migrate to a certain area. That influnce can change, and be manipulated, but it is there and real. travis
Banding data backs it up.
Its easier to see with dark geese, than with lite geese or ducks, but its certainly evident there too.
Dark geese populations are micro managed, for that very reason. Because certain breeding populations winter certain places. So if saskatewan numbers of lessers is good, but the james bay area did poorly, then they change the rules (seasons, limits, quotas) where needed, and vice versea. Easy to do with a small number of birds, and colored neck bands, harder to do with ducks so they generalize.
South LA will have ducks no matter what. If we never have a drop of water, or a bit of food. If we are perfect habitiat condtions and no hunting. South LA will get theirs... and its totally not dependent on anything we have here. Totally. They get their ducks before we get ours. Heck, look when their season opens, a week to 2 weeks BEFORE arkansass. Thats not an accident. There is a population of ducks, from certain locations made up of certain indivuals and certain speicies that winter there. The timing and magnatiude of the migration there is effected by forces unique to that area. The timing and magnatiude of migrtation here, or lack of, is NOT related to south la in any shape, form, or fashion.
If ducks never make it to MO in dec, they obviously aint gonna make it to AR or MS. Because those ducks, that are migrating in winter, came from a certain area, and expect to go to a certain area, and these areas (breeding and wintering) while tradationally the same, obviously change over time. The ppr region of the us is slowly growing a higher percentage of our ducks compared to prarie canada because of things like percipation averages and crp programs. Over time, this changes slightly to a lot where ducks are bred and rasied. Just like in the south, crowder is now holding as many ducks as stutgartt... MO & OK is now holding more ducks than they used too.. the magnets arent as strong, and their are more areas pulling these birds. But, by and large, ducks that winter in the middle ms and central flyways are ducks that come from certain areas, fly south along certain paths, and are certain numbers and sepeices tradationally.
Flyways are not tracks. Flyways are not even real. Flyways are a way for us to see where large populations of birds leave from and go to. They dont fly over the ms river watching for barge lites and navagtional becons, looking for my farm. They fly in the low spots, looking for areas they tradationally winter in. If you where to kill a duck in a particualr spot on the first day of the season, and to kill another duck the last day of the season, odds are those 2 ducks shared a remarkabley similar upbringing and migration, as far as from where the orignated from, and what triggers sent them tumbling. The chances of one of those ducks being lost from chesapeake bay, or missing their friends in west texas, is rare. Cuase they are from a general population of birds that grow in one general place, migrate in general terms, and winter in a general place.
Ever wonder why pintails usually are like 10 to 1 drakes to hens? And blackjack are like 30 to 1 drakes to hens? Cause the drakes and hens migrate at different times. Yet they all hook back up. Think theres a bunch of hard dickked ducks flying round, or they got plans?
Ducks do get lost, and make weird migrations. Band data shows that. But it also shows its the expection, not the rule.
This is the very same reason that mexican duck limits of 15 dont make one iota of difference. Becuase they are hunting a population of ducks that dont have any other hunting pressure on them, they can stand that kind of hammering. They dont get hammered all the way down to mexico... they go to mexico. Aint like some years are more wet in mexico either is it? They are ducks that winter in mexico.. its that simple. Pintails, redheads, blackjack, and some ducks that don't migrate. Buit they arent are pintails, and if they didnt kill a single one, we wouldsnt have a single one more in the air.
In the simplest terms, if you knew where the ducks on your hole typically come from, you would know where to watch for rain in the spring on the national weather map. Cuase the ducks from farmers brown marsh in north dakota, are geneneticcaly influenced to migrate to a certain area. That influnce can change, and be manipulated, but it is there and real. travis
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goosebruce
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Seen an awful lot of transmitter studies that they'll grab 6, and 5 of them winter in close proximity to each other. Why?
Year after year, some areas have a lot more bands than others. Why?
Why do I see pintails at different times than a friends farm that is the exact same latitude as mine, but 30 miles to the west and the other side of crowleys ridge. In my opinion, the birds on the other side of the ridge are from a different population.... thats why he has pintails early often before the season, but I always have them starting new years. Now most of the time, if he has birds, I have birds... and if there is a push, theres a push at either place. But in several years of watching when the pins show up, its amazing it can be so different so close to each other. The weather is the same... the habitat the same... the pressure the same... only difference is, a ridge between the 2 places. A natrual divider seperating regions for a an animal that flys only if it so chooses... and they apprently do.
Have read several times that certain birds are grown in certain areas, and I bet if someone could come up with long term band returns, you could prove it eaisly. Be intresting say a 1000 mallard bands killed in stutgartt area over 10 years, where they came from.
Condtions often are good on one part of the breeding grounds while poor on another. Hence the ability to manage the different flyways seperatly. Many of the players wish the abilty to micromanage more... for example instead of a ms flyway, a southern, middle, north ms flyway... Micromanaging only makes sense if you know the locations of all the players.
Never heard anyone sit down and lay it out like I have... so maybe I make more of than it is. But it sure makes sense to me... all the facts I know prove more of it, than disprove it, rare instances of lost birds non with standing.
Go find larry and see whut he thinks of my theory. He'll prove it or pronounce it full o crap real quick. travis
Year after year, some areas have a lot more bands than others. Why?
Why do I see pintails at different times than a friends farm that is the exact same latitude as mine, but 30 miles to the west and the other side of crowleys ridge. In my opinion, the birds on the other side of the ridge are from a different population.... thats why he has pintails early often before the season, but I always have them starting new years. Now most of the time, if he has birds, I have birds... and if there is a push, theres a push at either place. But in several years of watching when the pins show up, its amazing it can be so different so close to each other. The weather is the same... the habitat the same... the pressure the same... only difference is, a ridge between the 2 places. A natrual divider seperating regions for a an animal that flys only if it so chooses... and they apprently do.
Have read several times that certain birds are grown in certain areas, and I bet if someone could come up with long term band returns, you could prove it eaisly. Be intresting say a 1000 mallard bands killed in stutgartt area over 10 years, where they came from.
Condtions often are good on one part of the breeding grounds while poor on another. Hence the ability to manage the different flyways seperatly. Many of the players wish the abilty to micromanage more... for example instead of a ms flyway, a southern, middle, north ms flyway... Micromanaging only makes sense if you know the locations of all the players.
Never heard anyone sit down and lay it out like I have... so maybe I make more of than it is. But it sure makes sense to me... all the facts I know prove more of it, than disprove it, rare instances of lost birds non with standing.
Go find larry and see whut he thinks of my theory. He'll prove it or pronounce it full o crap real quick. travis
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goosebruce
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goosebruce
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Had 3,000 ducks sitting in my duck hole today according to my dad.
I agree with the original post as to what happened and what is happening with a few things to add like for whatever reason the old ducks are on refuges and extremely nocturnal and new ducks get with them quicker than quick. They are also bunched up for safety and do the same thing like the school of minnow theory or safety in numbers.
The other thing to add is there aren't as many birds as they say there is or that should support a 60 day season. Besides robos eliminating the young the pressure is causing the older birds to do what their doing.
States to the north are managing for waterfowl 100fold what they used to 10 years ago. The bootheel of MO is solid rice and it's flooded.
We will never see a return of birds like the days of 10 years ago until we address all the variables that can be changed which are: eliminating robo, decreasing pressure to 30 days, and hunting refuges to some extent to shake them up.
We can't change farming practices up north and weather.
Controlling predators and improving habitat for a better hatch is such a long time improvement thing that I don't think needs to be of our immediate focus.
Basically or to sum up my opinion is we have to go to 30 days with several long splits for several years to make ducks do what they used to do. What has changed is the bird we hunt and the bird has changed because of what we do to it. I don't care how many ducks there are if you can't kill it what good is it.
I agree with the original post as to what happened and what is happening with a few things to add like for whatever reason the old ducks are on refuges and extremely nocturnal and new ducks get with them quicker than quick. They are also bunched up for safety and do the same thing like the school of minnow theory or safety in numbers.
The other thing to add is there aren't as many birds as they say there is or that should support a 60 day season. Besides robos eliminating the young the pressure is causing the older birds to do what their doing.
States to the north are managing for waterfowl 100fold what they used to 10 years ago. The bootheel of MO is solid rice and it's flooded.
We will never see a return of birds like the days of 10 years ago until we address all the variables that can be changed which are: eliminating robo, decreasing pressure to 30 days, and hunting refuges to some extent to shake them up.
We can't change farming practices up north and weather.
Controlling predators and improving habitat for a better hatch is such a long time improvement thing that I don't think needs to be of our immediate focus.
Basically or to sum up my opinion is we have to go to 30 days with several long splits for several years to make ducks do what they used to do. What has changed is the bird we hunt and the bird has changed because of what we do to it. I don't care how many ducks there are if you can't kill it what good is it.
Well boys, after yesterday, I think that hunting pressure has been the greatest influence on "locally" killed ducks the last 2 years. This isn't backed up by "research", but it is what I have observed. Out of several places I hunt, two have always been considered "honey holes". One, in the delta, has been flooded most of the season and full of food. We killed 1, thats right, 1 mallard off of this hole all season. For years, this place has been awesome, but last year I heard shooting from a new hole to our west. This year, I heard shooting from 2 new holes south and east. Not much shooting, but shooting like what seems to be the norm now. 10 hunters in a blind and 30 shots everytime a spoonie comes within 70 yards. The ducks that did work our hole at times were scared sh___less to land anywhere near the area. Alas! Yesterday, nearly 2 weeks after the close of the season, I was checking some beaver traps and about 500 mallards blew out of the hole when I approached. Now you may say that this is typical for mid February, and it is, but it has also been typical in parts of December and most of January until the last couple of years. Now, to honey hole #2. This one is located more or less in the hills out of the delta. It has always been just as good as honey hole #1. Big difference is that last year and this year as well, it was great, as usual. The only thing that is different about the 2 holes, is that hole #2 is off by its lonely self. We are the only game in town. Nobody shooting at birds within hearing except us, and we put as little pressure as possible on the birds. Hey, the birds work. You can actually call to them with positive results. Now, I may be wrong and usually am, but from my perspective, this is due totally to hunting pressure in each area. The other places that we hunt are not nearly as predictable as these two areas. We did kill ducks very early in the season, but as the season (and pressure) progressed, we had a pretty much horrible season and this is in areas that usually are pretty good at times. So, who knows? I may be considered an a-hole for saying it, but it would suit me if the season was reduced to about 30 days and 2 ducks for a couple of years. May get some of the "Rudys" back to deer huntin or golf and get some of this pressue off of the ducks.
We do have ducks imprinting in the deep south ! Just not during duck season !
Even the last few "not so good" years, we have seen plenty of ducks in the deep South,... it's just been during Feb. and March,... YES, I SAID MARCH !!!
Tried to Turkey hunt a swamp in Jasper County, a couple of years back,...Couldn't hear a thing for all the Mallard hens ! Mallards stayed in that hole til first week of April ! I'm not talkin a handful either,...this place was covered completly up, the last week of March !
I have never given much credit to "THE DUCKS HAVE GONE BACK NORTH" theory ! Especially people citing it for a poor duck season,... that is simply too early ! In a couple of simple words IT'S B.S. !!!!
Rip Em !
Even the last few "not so good" years, we have seen plenty of ducks in the deep South,... it's just been during Feb. and March,... YES, I SAID MARCH !!!
Tried to Turkey hunt a swamp in Jasper County, a couple of years back,...Couldn't hear a thing for all the Mallard hens ! Mallards stayed in that hole til first week of April ! I'm not talkin a handful either,...this place was covered completly up, the last week of March !
I have never given much credit to "THE DUCKS HAVE GONE BACK NORTH" theory ! Especially people citing it for a poor duck season,... that is simply too early ! In a couple of simple words IT'S B.S. !!!!
Rip Em !
OFFSEASON ?,..... Ain't no such thing !
I have a question. Even with a couple of years of short seasons and low limits, how many people would quit duck hunting? I wouldn't. I doubt that many people here would. There's a reason duck hunting has gotten so popular. That's because it's awesome. I'm sure that there are a few that would quit if they couldn't kill six ducks a day, but I'm not sure if it would have any sort of huge impact on the hunting pressure. And what about states that don't have as many deer as Mississippi? It's easy for us to say, "Ah screw it, there aren't any ducks. I'm gonna kill a deer tomorrow." Heck, I did it twice this past year. What was the result? The day after I issued such statements, I killed a deer. The next day, I was duck hunting again. A bunch of people don't have that option.
Besides, after a couple of years, even if there was less pressure and the hunting got better, wouldn't all the people that left come back? The sight of those fatheads cupping up and dropping in is pretty strong stuff, dontcha think?
mottlet
Besides, after a couple of years, even if there was less pressure and the hunting got better, wouldn't all the people that left come back? The sight of those fatheads cupping up and dropping in is pretty strong stuff, dontcha think?
mottlet
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mottlet wrote:...I'm sure that there are a few that would quit if they couldn't kill six ducks a day
mottlet
It hasn't run many people off yet!
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Cotton
Has any body seen any reliable Data on the amount of acreage that has gone back into cotton in the last 3-4 years? I have heard that acreage in Leflore was up 20%. Gonna check with the Council to see. Id rather plant cotton, but $8 beans is good for ducks and me.
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