Training question -- Decheating

[waterbug]

Training bud and I were discussing this the other day about decheating and shore breaking. How do you personally teach decheating? Do you use lots of cheating singles and deny the dog the bird to make the dog honest by not giving the retrieve unless he goes straight? Do you stop and recall? Do you handle to show the correct path and re-run the same cheating single to see if dog understands the lesson. At what point do you use the collar on this, if any, and why? Do you use Dobbs method of making the apex at water and down the bank hot? Does Dobb's method cause any later problems of the bank being hot and the dog refuses to go where you want it? Basically, what approach has worked best for you and why...

[goosebruce]

de-cheating with making the bank hot is exactly where I departed from dobbs method. I didn't think it was FAIR. I think by being fair to a dog, you can teach him to do the right thing, and by consistancy he will do the right thing thru repetetion. Decheating by buring a dog off a hot bank makes a dog take water by being scared not too, and dogs might do a lot of things scared, but they do not do GREAT things being scared. Not saying it wont work, and for a basic hunting dog, its probably enough, but for an advanced dog, it creates an anixety that is not ideal for teaching GREAT things. travis

[Damn_It_Boy]

Agree Travis.........bug, Lardy's tapes/dvd's cover this pretty well. Time for you to order them if you don't have them. You will need them for the hot young un ya got anyway........Also, if you can get my Fowl Dawg DVD's from Matt, it's covered in their nicely as well. I wish I could get my training library back........

Oh, and I can show you how Chris Aiken starts decheating with a young dog. It's very simple, and involves low pressure. Makes the later stages of decheating much easier. Holler.......

[waterbug]

Agree completely with your departure from Dobbs at that point. Getting ready to decheat my girl and was reading all my books on it last week, and main problem I had with Dobbs was making the bank hot. Thought, what if you have a situtation that requires dog to get on bank to remain on line then reenter water. If the layout looks similar to where the dog has been taught not to go then you gonna hear books closing.... thanks for the donation.

DIB, been meaning to look at Fowl Dogs.

[EvanG]

de-cheating with making the bank hot is exactly where I departed from dobbs method. I didn't think it was FAIR. I think by being fair to a dog, you can teach him to do the right thing, and by consistancy he will do the right thing thru repetetion. Decheating by buring a dog off a hot bank makes a dog take water by being scared not to... travis

Exactly right. The old school pros, and some still today, didn't really teach dogs to go straight. They concentrated on just scaring them off of tempting shoreline, and that is both unfair, and in opposition to training.

Start with simple concepts, like a corner of a pond that will provide a diagonal entry & possibly a diagonal exit. Run a Cheating Single; handling to show the dog how to go straight in the presence of factors that entice him not to. That's training. The only corrections are for failures to Go, Stop, or Come as commanded. Move up, simplify...make it clear what you want and how you want it done. My preference is to use bumpers and have my thrower be accurate about hitting the same spot each time, as I repeat these to true up the route. Because I want the triggers in that environment to cue the dog to understand that this is a drill, I don't throw birds and don't fire shots. That way the dog doesn't tend to connect this type of repetition with repeating of cold marks.

"Just train the dog." ~ Rex Carr



Gradually advance to more complicated routes, and handle as needed for the line (or route).

EvanG

[waterbug]

I don't throw birds and don't fire shots. That way the dog doesn't tend to connect this type of repetition with repeating of cold marks.

"Just train the dog." ~ Rex Carr

EvanG

Good info right there. Thanks,

[goosebruce]

Evan, thats the word... old school. I don't like to type too much about old school, as most of it was WAY before my time, and I sound like an idiot know it all. You where there (or at leas told nuff to know), so your phrase is correct, I just shy away from it.

The history of retriever tests parelles a lot of the old type training. The 'standard' tests bascially where developed to pick apart 'old school' type training. There wasn't hunting tests, simply field trials and meat dogs. The old collars where brutal, along with some of the tatics... dogs didnt go back to old falls, because they where burnt off them. Hence inlines and over and unders.. and so on. Somewhere along the way, folks starting realizing being fair to dogs built the confidence to do the right things for the right reason, not out of simple fear. Its a principal Lardy alludes to again and again, and of all the things I got from his tapes when I got into this, thats the #1 thing that has served me so well.

Dobbs isn't wrong. Thats just not RIGHT enough. Jim Dobbs is a great person, an incredible reader of dogs and people, and his program will still produce a solid hunting dog. And even if you don't follow the entire program, he has a lot of great ideals from young dog stuff, platforms, and drills that are worth knowing, so you can incorprate what you want/need from it. But decheating was EXACTLY where I knew I had to find something else... my first dog to train was on the spooky side to begin with (rowdy), and I knew I had to have his confidence for him to be great. I did my part, and he did his.

no birds and shots is a good point.

I wont get into specifics about what i do, because its confusing in print and I dont want anyone to think I got 'the' way, but I deal with cheating without a formal swimby, and almost exclusivly with blinds in a drill type situation. travis

[Damn_It_Boy]

Evan, was Rex always old school when it came to decheating? Or did he adapt before he passed away?

[goosebruce]

pasted away... whut was he in a glue accident? travis

[Damn_It_Boy]

dude......you don't want to get me started on proper english and spelling do you?

[goosebruce]

It could get sticky. travis

[Damn_It_Boy]

[B3]

You handle to show the dog the correct route. As he is shown the correct way multiple times he will learn to run straight on his own. This way seems much fairer than letting the dog get in the wrong place and then punishing him for being there.

Bill

[cdwyer]

You handle to show the dog the correct route. As he is shown the correct way multiple times he will learn to run straight on his own. This way seems much fairer than letting the dog get in the wrong place and then punishing him for being there.

Bill

In an advanced dog, what if it's a blantant flair, pil and or obvious lack of effort?

[SkippyJ]

You handle to show the dog the correct route. As he is shown the correct way multiple times he will learn to run straight on his own. This way seems much fairer than letting the dog get in the wrong place and then punishing him for being there.

Bill

In an advanced dog, what if it's a blantant flair, pil and or obvious lack of effort?

In an advanced dog...that i KNOW...KNOWS better, just made the "pizz on it, and on you" decision.....well it gets a good correction. Called back to the point of the infraction, and cast down the correct line.

Once again......IN AN ADVANCED DOG!!!