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...if my dog is sitting next to me at the bucket when the marks start coming out...then he begins his creep thing...then fido is out about 2 feet by the time the last bird hits the ground...and I say sit several times during this whole process is this considered a control break...if I go ahead and send from there...

...or...

...what if I re-heal the dog right before I send the dog...is that a controlled break...

...and...

...does it make a difference if I am the honor dog or the working dog...

At the Grand yes...weekend test probably not. Depends on the behavior of the dog as well. Is he barking, bouncing, verge of being out of control, maybe. If he is quite, repositioning himself to see the marks and happens to end up two feet out then no. As long as a dog exhibts controlled desire and in the process moves around a little to take advantage of the immedite area around the handler to effectivly see the marks, thats cool!

The other factor is why did you have to say sit? Did you say it to keep him from breaking, did you fear he would break if you didnt say it. Once you open your mouth, the judge can only judge what he sees & hears. You would assume that if you say sit, you are saying it to prevent a break.

Another thing, in my experience especially at the Grand never re-heal your dog unless the judge asks you too! That gives them something to second guess.

The definition of a controlled break was discussed at TREMENDOUS length at the judges and handlers seminar at the national meeting. If a handler says or does anything to stop forward momentum of his dog, it is a controlled break. Many people wanted to know if a certain distance had to be "broken" in order for it to be a controlled break and the answer was "NO"-- if you stop your dog's forward momentum, it is a controlled break.

Mike Botts was the presenter and he was careful to clarify the difference in forward momentum and a dog's adjustment of position in order to see the mark. But to answer your question, if you do anything to stop the forward momentum of the dog, it is a controlled break. It is not an automatic failure at the finished level but I can tell you from my April 17th experience, it is at the Grand!!!!! When you get to the Grand, I suggest you never say a word until you release your dog or the judge tells you to re-heel him/her.

Hope this helps.

Mark

it's a controled break when you get away with it and a break, break when you don't.

Mark Evans wrote:If a handler says or does anything to stop forward momentum of his dog, it is a controlled break. Many people wanted to know if a certain distance had to be "broken" in order for it to be a controlled break and the answer was "NO"-- if you stop your dog's forward momentum, it is a controlled break.

It is not an automatic failure at the finished level but I can tell you from my April 17th experience, it is at the Grand!!!!! When you get to the Grand, I suggest you never say a word until you release your dog or the judge tells you to re-heel him/her.

for the sake of discussion: you should attempt to run every mark (test or training) without saying a word to your dog. at least with my dog, in ukc tests he tends to creep with every shot, and never move in akc. the bucket and gun really jacks him up. imo, if the dog creeps and ends up 2-3 feet in front and you are asked to re-heel your dog it is a controlled break. (otherwise why do you have to re-heel the dog). its understandable that if you tell the dog to sit repeatedly you are acknowledging that it is a controlled break.

say you are at the grand and the marks have come out, the dog has crept 10 feet out front (otherwise quiet and under control)waiting on go, but you haven't said a thing to him. the judges tell you to re-heel your dog. you do so and run the series clean. do you think they wouldn't consider that a controlled break?

If your dog creeps and you don't say anything it is judged as creeping. But if you say anything to your dog while it is creeping out and your dog stops it is judged as a controll break because you stopes forward progress.

if a handler gets involved, its a controlled break.

if a dog crept 10 foot in the grand, and the handler didnt shoot up, he'd be failed for gun safety. if he reheeled, hed a get a marginal score for excessive creeping. if he said anything during the dog moving he'd been failed for a control break, and if the dog didnt immedately return to heel when instructed he'd be toast. travis

If we are talking about how creeping and CBs are judged I can only give you one judges opinion.
I don't play or judge at the Grand level so I can only say what I do on the weekends.
Most experienced judges know the difference between "adjusting" and "creeping".
If you prevent your dog from "creeping" or "breaking" with voice commands then there is nothing to judge.
My rule book says you can talk to your dog.
If you say nothing and your dog creeps or control breaks....there is no amount of "re-heel" that will undo that.

A dog that takes off from the line and is stopped by the handler has had a controlled break and is subject to be judged as whether it will pass or fail.
An excessive amount of creeping can become and can be considered a controlled break. If excessive may be failed.
I generally consider steadiness to be one of the primary traits of a good retriever.
(The seminar manual goes so far as to also classify it as a safety issue)

When I'm judging...... I try to never get involved. I do not want affect the outcome. If the handler chooses to release the dog from 4 feet in front of the line that is what I judge. I do not instruct the handlers to re-heel.

I'd have to see it to make the call on what I would judge it.

And to the original question.......on Honor, the standard is not different but you also have to add...must not interfere with the working dog. If the Honor dog creeps, he gets marked down for creeping. If Controlled Break he gets "judged" and if he breaks he's "outta there".

goosebruce wrote:if a handler gets involved, its a controlled break.

if a dog crept 10 foot in the grand, and the handler didnt shoot up, he'd be failed for gun safety. if he reheeled, hed a get a marginal score for excessive creeping. if he said anything during the dog moving he'd been failed for a control break, and if the dog didnt immedately return to heel when instructed he'd be toast. travis

this is my point. you are either out or marked down. you're not off scot free because you didn't say anything to the dog.

I think the point is, you get a lot of room in a typical Finished hunt test with creeping and talking to your dog. From what I've seen, it takes a lot to get a dog booted from the line.

The Grand is it's own beast. There really is no comparison, and you will finally understand this if you attend a handlers meeting and you continuously here "grand standards". Or grand control. Iffen you go and run the grand, your dog better be in total tune with you and your body movements. Iffen you need to say heel or sit more than once, you are probably toast to start with.

Out in the first regards,

DIB

depends on any number of things..............like, if the handler and judge are buddies, controlled break, see you on the water.

if no one knows the handler, everyone rolls eyes, and scored a break - better luck next time, thank your judges.

of course i'm joking.

owner of a few that'll break break in a hurry, gator

I think it is like pornography. As a Supreme Court judge stated, you know it when you see it.
After you have run a few tests and watched , you will know it.
It is a judgement call for the judges to make. Don't think there is any universally accepted standard. There may be a universally published standard but I see it enforced differently in different regions and with different judges. The Grand is different from the weekend test to be sure.
Go to a test and watch J Paul Jackson run. As every bird is in the air, he tells his dogs "NO HERE". Never seen him failed for a CB either working or Honor.
Some of us have creepers, me included, and we just have to do what we have to do to get them thru the weekend.
JMHO as usual.
MP

Mark Evans wrote:.... When you get to the Grand, I suggest you never say a word until you release your dog or the judge tells you to re-heel him/her....Hope this helps.

Mark

ahh yes the Grand!! As we all or most know the Grand has its own rules. Mark, I am going to ax a question off what you stated above. I agree with what you said but, always a but, what if you were told in handlers meetings the ol' "if your dog is beyond your barrel, re-heel your dog". What does that mean? (The follwing questions are related to a creep)

Does that mean the judges will tell you to re-heel your dog if they deem fido is past gun barrel ?

..or does that mean if you the handler think fido is past gun barrel then re-heel your dog then send?

which leads me to my last question.... if judge says nothing is fido deemed ok to send?

I was gonna say something about the barrel................




...please continue to post away....see why I asked this.............