DuckSouth.com

i still hunt ducks the way i did for the past 50 years....... i did try the spinners a few years back after the preacher gave me one for christmas.... and the new photo imprinted dekes look nice, along with the new acrylic calls that sell for a bundle....{ i like the whiskey or scotch colors the best}. and the list of camo clothes, blinds and even thermos bottles are of great interest..... rekon where it will end ?

my main concern is with the training of dogs by those that are less experienced, but just have to own a competition or hunt trial dog..... my old dog. Sam will turn 15 in Nov. and i have been past the middle-age stage for sometime...... we are both old and seen our share of good duck and dove hunts... and i must say that i have never pinched or bit his ear to the ground or strapped a shock collar around his neck.... we worked togeather as a team when we were both young...... just remember, you and your dog will each be over the hill, and who cares if he is HRC champ or that you was a crack shot as a youngster? just two old dogs laying around the house resting and remembering.......


judge b

I gave up serious dog training 5 years ago, when I noticed my firstborn daughter bringing her dolls to me in her mouth on all fours.

When I say serious, I'm talking morning before work I set out 3 Lucyana Strong Arms in the dark and wait for the sun to come up to run the dog and any trial or test east of the MS was not to far away.

I sold them all and quit cold turkey.

I bought a pup for my 6 yr. old son the christmas before last. I haven't put a collar on the dog nor will. I'm the thrower and my son handles the dog when we do go train. I'd also rather hunt with this dog than the others except on blind retrieves, but that is improving gradually and at a pace I prefer. I did lightly force fectch from about A to G.

I'm just agreeing with you, it's all in what you want. Of course our hunting buddy wouldn't pass a Sr. test today, but I don't care. My kids love me and that's what's most important and most of the time I don't have to get my feet wet.

I had three pair of old neoprenes all breakdown on me last year, and I bought a pair of canvas. I doubt I'll ever go back to wood calls, but think I'd like to wear a tan canvas hunting coat instead of all that mossyphage. I'm happy as long the ducks fly the timber.

Thats a funny choice of words, because we typically refer to 'old school' methods of training as outdated too brutal methods. I've never shot a dog, or hung it by the collar with all 4 feet off the floor, or ever beat one in anger... yet those where all very accepted 'old school' methods of dog training. Judge you never seen anyone shoot a bird dog that ranged too far? Sure you have, you been on more quail hunts then I have I reckon. For decades that was the way you corrected a bird dog, or a lab who wouldnt stop on a whistle, with #9 shot... make sure he's hauling ass on you or you might put out en eye.

For decades dogs (labs) in general where bred to be able to take tremndous amounts of physical punishment, because that was the training methods of the times. Todays labs don't have to take that kind of pressure, and those methods fall way short in the end, and the dogs that are bred are the ones that show their stuff.. and thats accomplished by todays methods. Ear pinching sounds awful, and I readily admit its the one part of dog training I don't like... but its no more than my 2 labs do to each other in the living room playing with each other... Not an afternoon goes by one of them doesnt squeel when the other gets a good bite. Nobody ever mentions how rough dogs play with each other as bad. Wonder why?

Somehow or another, theirs a great misnomer people have that anyone who would shock their dog or pinch his ear must be a monstor... that our dogs are merely shells of dogs. I assure you, nothing could be further from the truth. Your dog is 15 judge... I'd be willing to bet my dog has been more places and miles with me at least at 3 years old than your old boy has with you. And he's never been drug anywhere, in fact, its hard to leave the house without him. He's a wonderful dog in the house, and a member of my family... He'd eat anything up that tried to lay a hand on a kid, or my wife.. man or beast. His ears look fine, and you couldnt pet him and tell anything wrong with his neck. How can this be? Because I took the time to learn to do it the right way, and his performance and his personality is proof of that.

Have you ever corrected and dog and he didnt know why? Smack him with a newspaper, spank his butt, knee him off you? Would you belive I spent 2 months of my dogs life making sure he knew WHY he recived a correction, and HOW to get out of it? Sounds brutal eh? Actually teach an animal why he's corrected, and what to do to get out of it.

You ever yell out loud at your dog on a duck hunt? Ever? I haven't.

You see, your very mention of your 'old school' train of thought shows you know not of what we speak. Your generation was responbile for training methods and tradations I'd want no part of either. If i was your age, and my only glismps of this are what you've probably seen, Id feel the same way. But if you came and trained with me for a week judge, you'd be looking for a puppy in a month. Its that different.

My black dog is laying next to the couch right now, half asleep with his head on my wifes leg cause the youngest one is in her lap. The fat retired yeller one is on my feet. Looking at these 2, I don't have a doubt everything you have at 15, I'll have if they live that long. Looking at the black one, that has been trained hard, but fairly his entire life, I also know how much more he has given me. Last saturday, at 34 months 2 days old, he became the youngest male in HRC history to hit 500 points ( a finished pass is 15 points, and upland is 10 points, if that gives you any ideal how many tests that is). He has loved every single minute of it, and of the 5 tests he's ever failed, 3 of them where because he was actually too damn happy to be there, and ran over the top of the first bird of the test! Attitude, and confidence, are NOT part of the problem... and that shows proof of the methods he was trained with. A dog can't show attitude, and confidence, if he's spent his life being treated rough.

Judge, look at our website... http://www.rowdydogg.com and tell me if that dog or kid either one look abused. Thats my training partner in that right picture. How rough you think I train with him watching? travis

Judge, I'm with you on this one. You told it right. I sure do regret some of the trainin' I gave one or two of my dogs. It wasn't necessary, they fetched all the same in the end. And who cares if they didnt do it perfect, nobody I hunt with sets much standard in perfection, only in a perfectly enjoyable hunt, with no stress and good memories. Thats what it's about, cause in the end, it's all we're gonna have, memories.

Goosebruce well said!

I'm one of the silent ones that on occaison checks the site out. However, I had to comment on this one. The e-collar is a magnificent tool in the right hands. You don't teach with it...you reinforce what you have already taught.

I thought force fetching and the e-collar sounded cruel until I learned about both. E-collars are like guns. Some people should have them... some should not. If your level headed and receive proper training you will reap great rewards.

Take care of you pups!

I've heard that the old school methods were to shoot the dog with rat shot when it screwed up. Now the new shock collars don't hurt the dog they just remind it. I have put the collar on myself many a time to prove to people that I am not hurting my dog. I love my dog and have alot of time and money put into it. Why would I do anything to harm it? I am just saying that the newer methods are not all bad, just not what you are used to.

I think I'll wade into this one.

Seems to me dogs are alot like children, they are a product of thier environment. My Italian mother whooped me any chance she got, whether I needed it or not. I thought that was the way everyone was until I got around other families.

My son is three years, 3 months and has yet to have his first spanking. No, he is not spoiled. As a matter of fact, the teachers at his school compliment my wife and I on what a good child he is. He picked up "yes ma'am, yes sir", please and thank you without being ever told to. Sure he gets grumpy when he needs a nap, but he always does as he is told. This is not to say that day will never come when he will need a "hide tanning". If the need arises, I will reluctantly discipline him accordingly, but I believe his good behaviour is directly related to the way we are raising him. You would have a hard time convincing me we are not raising him properly, though there are those that insist a child should be spanked.

I am lucky enough to have a 7 year old male lab named Beau. I trained him myself with Richard Wolters books, plus a few training methods I developed myself. I was a hunting and fishing guide for a few years, and Beau has spent thousands of hours in a boat with me, practicly the first three years of his life while I was guiding or scouting. He has retrieved countless birds for me with all the enthusiasim I could ever ask for. A few years back he won the only competition that I ever entered him in. He is a fantastic family dogs and is gentle as a lamb with my children. I took him from his litter before he knew what a pecking order for food was about, so my son could take a bloody bone from his mouth and just stand there and drool (maybe look at me like "whats up with that?) He has been a constant companion, by best friend, and I tell my wife and children we will probably never have another dog like him.

It wasn't until I started visiting duck forums online that I heard about shock collars and force fetching. I couldn't imagine what in the world they were needed for, but maybe I just got lucky with my dog and never needed one. Yeah, I've yelled at my dog while hunting and in other situations, but I didn't ruin other's peoples day of hunting blowing a whistle AND yelling, like so many other guys I have seen.

I found that my dog reacts best when I relate to him like a dog. When I want him to know I mean business, I get on the ground and alpha posture over his head and growl. He knows what that means. No pinching, no shocking. I get funny looks from friends and neighbors, but I don't care what they think of me anyway. Beau is by far, the best retriever I have ever encountered in a hunting situation, but hey, I'm a little biased. Again, you would have a had time convincing me I'm not doing it right.

I'm not trying to put words in the good Judges mouth, but it seems to me that whenever someone asks a question regarding retrievers, there are those that insist their way is THE ONLY WAY, and anything else is nonsense. I have seen guys inquire here about breeding their dog, only to be lectured about hip ratings and eye tests. Sure, I agree the bad blood lines need to be culled, but we don't need the LAB NAZIS interrogating us and scoffing at anyone who thinks differently than they do. My dog scored excellent on one hip, and good on the other. Should I not breed him just because he isn't perfect? I have been told so by a lab-fanatic on another forum.

Goose, I enjoy your posts just about more than anyone elses. I believe you know more about lab training ( and goose whacking) than I ever have, and maybe more than I ever will. You are obviously very passionate about your training and I admire the zeal at which you go about it. But I KNOW your dog has not spent the time with you in a hunting (not training) situation that mine has with me, but that doesn't make mine better than yours. You and I have different opinions about training, but I think we would agree on most of the major points. I am not directing this at you, or anyone else in particular. I'm am just tired of the "LAB-IER THAN THOU" attitude of some of the posts here.

I didn't take tha' judge trained by old field trial methods, just that he went slow and the end result he desires in a hunting dog is not a 300 yard blind with two whistles or a dog that runs straight taking that fine slice of water going and coming.

That level of training is great if you got the time and the desire for your dog to do that, but I have neither anymore. If your going to be competitive in Field Trials today and you don't use a collar, your going to have to be very hard on the dog or the dog will be 5 - 7 years old before your at that level.

I'll agree that the new methods of collar training are very mild and gentle if you do it right. E-Collars are also much softer than the old field trial non-collar "old school" training methods. They are also much faster to finish a dog. I finished (lining or 2 - 3 whistle 300 yards blinds) a pup at 11 months once with a collar and sold her for 3K.

As long as my dog is steady, stylish, and never loses a bird I'm happy and it doesn''t take much in the way of time to do that. Course I know what I'm doing. Like I said my son's dog wouldn't pass a Sr AKC test if I were judging, but I love to hunt with her and don't use a collar.

With that said, if I had the time and the desire for a high caliber dog that was capable of passing a MH or winning a Qualifying I'd strap on the collar, raise ducks, and pull out the remote strong arms again; however, that's not needed for a good hunting dog if you know what your doing.

I'll say one more thing, while I'm on the subject. I know a ton of good hunting dogs that I love to hunt with that couldn't pass a SR. I also know a bunch of titled MH and FC and AFC's that I have hunted with and would hate to hunt with again. Now Goose, I'm sure yours is a good hunting dog, but all of them aren't and they may be what Judge has observed.

Very well said Captn T. I have a five year old child being raised the same way. And she is the most well adjusted child we know. Oddly enough, I have a friend of many years that subscribed to the shock collar, etc, etc of the "new age training". He trained his dog to the "nth" degree, that dog would do it all, he believed in all the "new" ideas. He trained that dog to the point, that the dog was useless for hunting. Now in a field trial setting, the dog would do anything it was suppose to, down to all the little bitty rules of the game. But take her to the blind, and she was a basket case. He tried raising his first and second child the same way, to the "nth" degree, according to all the child rearing and parenting books. They were going to be model children. He called me the other day, said he was having some serious problems with both his children, said they were going to start family counseling. He just couldnt figure out what the problem was. Now in public, those children behave like model children, but when they get home, they are bashing holes in walls, screaming, yelling, fighting, bashing each other with heavy objects.,,,and he and his wife just cant figure out why, hum???????? I just wonder, if dogs could talk, what would they say? In the good ole days, there were as many folks that treated their animals with kindness as there were that shot them with rat shot. Patience, love and kindness is what it takes, with kids and dogs, and for every short cut you take, there is a setback of equal proportion. Sure you can "make" a kid or a dog perform, but in the end, what is reflected in their eyes. Love or the need to please, watch out, that can be two totally different things. Yep Captn T, say, that water cold, say, yea, and it deep too,,,,,,,but I waded in anyway

Well seems like to me the ole saying applies "Opinons are like #$$%%@ we all have one" heres mine HEH. I kinda took a little offense to the first post sounded kinda like Judge might had a little resentment to the force fetch post, or maybe just mad he read Goose's novel HEH dunno. If you had of hunted with Goose and Fat Dawg you would understand his motavation with Rowdy and to learn some of the prefered methods by alot of duck Hunters and Dog lovers all over the world....If im not mistaken the HRC was devised to more accomodate duck hunters, in giving them ability to duck hunt from the dogs persepective almost year round. That takes alot of dedication to hit that 500 point mark congrates Travis, what more coulda duck dog want than to hunt ducks FULL TIME?

Oh I ment to add "LAB-IER THAN THOU" ya earned it...........

After a good night's sleep, I went back and re-read this thread and the one on force fetching. Alot of excellent advise given and I must say I learned alot there.

That said, I want to re-emphasize I am in no way bashing anyone or their training methods. I think we all can agree dogs have different personalities, and each one is an individual in its own way. Some dogs (like children) need a heavy hand, and others need a softer touch.

Before I got my lab Beau, I had a Brittany that I wanted to train (in the days before the internet), so I went to the library and looked for books on training. I talked to a few old timers, and decided to use a book written in the 1950's ( I forget the name) on Pointer training. Most of the methods involved pain (almost torture), but I followed them to a "t". I was impatient and worked the pup too hard too fast. The result was a dog that was afraid of me and the sound of a whistle and the sight of a gun. I screwed that up really bad and made a vow to myself never to let it happen again.

I read Wolters books and liked the methodology involved. His methods used no force, and it fit me and Beau. Like I said, I spent alot of time with him, and I was a single man, so he had all my time. In retrospect that seems to be a tremendous advantage, and is probably the single most important factor, TIME. Now that I am a family man, I see that my next retriever will not get the same time or attention, and I will probably have to resort to different methods.

The problem I see with alot of retriever clubs is the isolation of the everyday Joe. Its very intimidating for a first timer that only wants a good hunting retriever when they see the competitive nature of it all. I was exposed to it for the first time at the 1998 MSHRC Duck Dog Championship. I knew Beau was a good retriever so I entered, but was really intimidated with what went on there. We entered the Junior and won. That justified everything to me, and I was interested in taking it further. I joined the club and went to a few sessions, only to become disillusioned by the training methods I saw. From what I saw the goal for most of the owners was winning and points, not hunting. I have the trophy and ribbon displayed in my office and am very proud of them, but I am much prouder of the films of Beau swimming after a crippled diving woody for 15 minutes, or a quadruple swimming retrieve. To each his own.

I was a volunteer sheriff's officer in the early ninties and at a training class one day the sheriff told us you are much more likely to be shot over a man's dog that a man's wife. I guess the emotional ties we have with our dogs are that strong, and its that same emotion that breeds the competitive nature of us owners.

Captn T

You need to take your son off the heavy medication, and let him get into trouble. Like climb up the curtains, upon the counters while your back is turned for just a second. Keep putting the kittens in the toilet. Put waffles in the VCR's.

DD I said he was well-mannered, he is ALL boy though. Believe me, around the house he is PLENTY mischevious. He keeps his sisters, mother and I in stiches most of the time.

No medication in this house.

Capt t.... note the part where you spent every minute the first 3 years of your dogs life with him. Thats why you got a dog, in spite of the water dog book, brother.

Labier than thou? Thank you very much.

Do not confuse a dog that is a good hunter, perhaps an excellent hunter, that was trained on the job, with a dog equipped for anything anywhere to do it with a very high standard. You got what you wanted, I got what I wanted. If we're both happy, there's no beef. Ive owned an ojt dog, though probably not like your boy cause I didnt spend 3 years with her from the get go. I wont have another one. Thats my choice, and I work my ass off to keep it from being that way. I wanted a dog that could hunt in ways I always wished a dog could, and Ive got one. How much hes hunted has little to do with how well he hunts... thats what is important to me, and nothing more. Rowdy IS the hunt... those of you who think dogs that play the game can't hunt, need to call me when you got birds on your hole... bwhahahaha. You'll be happy to come back on here and tell everyone of the day we had together, I assure you.

My statement about time was simply to show judge people who train the way he hates to hear love their dogs. Thats all.

Oh, and yes if your dog isn't geneticly sound he shouldnt be bred. Lab nazi or not, I also have a dog with bad elbows because of backyard breeding and now almost toally deaf from cronic ear infections. Her mom had bad ear infections and no clearences... Gee, whats the chances of her too? Owning a dog that should have never been bred give me the right to tell someone to buy from sound stock. Doesnt mean I dont love her... just wish she could hear me say it.

Eastwoods, please name the titled fc's afc's you've hunted with you dont want to again and why. I call $#!+, but hey, if you're shooting straight, i want to know. Every master or finished dog I ever hunted with was bad ass... havent hunted with any ft dogs, but I can only imagine itd be even better. Some of the owners let their test dogs gets away with murder, ad the dogs knew it, but I only contribute that to dogs that are smart nuff to try it! hehe.

Anyway, I love you guys and you know it. travis

GB, didn't mean to raise the hackles of the infamous boat paddle wielder You are definitly a gentleman and a scholar when it comes to retriever training, and my beef wasn't with you (even though I mentioned you by name for that one comment). I was making my comments toward those that feel the need to correct everyone and to say if your dog isn't force-fetch trained, from champion bloodlines, titled or BLACK, then it isn't really a labrador. I haven't seen that much talk from you, GB, so my apologies if you took it as a hit on you, because I love you too

As for the LAB-IER THAN THOU comment, you're welcome

And it was Game Dog, not Water Dog.

I made my first post before reading the force fetch thread, thats why I made another post and tried to clarify what I had said. I have been chewing on this subject for awhile and I interpreted the judge's comments as a platform to voice them. Looking back maybe this isn't the right context to communicate what I mean. I have seen alot of LAB SNOBS attack, not educate, the common man as to what they believe is right. No two ways about it, if you aren't doing it a certain way, you might as well shoot your dog because he is ruined. There are many ways to skin a cat, even more ways to cook them. Everyone has a right to have thier favorite.

My post was made in defense of the guy that has trained his (or her) dog themselves and is happy with the results, but is constantly being told he (or she) did it the wrong way. I guess that pretty much includes me. I don't know how many of you post over at arkansaswaterfowler, but there are alot less than there used to be because of the confrontations there. Like I said, I had a guy tell me because my dog scored EXCELLENT on one hip and GOOD on another he was unfit to breed. I see alot of owners/breeders offering a dog for stud with two GOOD hips, what's wrong with mine? These were the lab nazis I was speaking about, not somebody giving advise when advise is asked for like alot of guys around here do.

I don't know about your club GB, but I have heard comments from others that say they do not hunt thier dogs, they just compete them. I wouldn't want to hunt with one of those dogs. Ever sit in the blind or boat with an old seasoned duck dog and admire how patient they seem, and how they get it about not moving? Then have you been in a blind or boat with a dog that is wound tighter than a cheap watch spring and won't settle down? Maybe that is what eastwoods is referring to, because I have experienced it myself.

I admire and sometimes envy those of you that put the time and effort into training your dogs and competing them. I considered it and decided to wasn't for me, due in large part to some of the massive egos I encountered. I knew at some point I would speak my mind and piss off one of the judges, or charter members and that would be all she wrote.

GB, I think we both agree TIME is the single most important factor in training. We seem to differ on discipline, and again that has to do with time available.