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Oh hell why not give my worthless opinion .

I aint got a problem with a break ,,,controlled or not . If you break your out ,,,,,,,,,,,,,If i leave something to be judged then it becomes a human factor , and i will take what ever the judges decision is (if i agree or not)

But since im just a nobody (WHY) is the Grand judged any different than the finished test that got you there to begin with ?
What happen to the whole HRC family deal ?

goosebruce wrote:Marty, thats dead on to the point of the thread... a simplistic defintion of a controlled break is the handler getting involved works for master and the grand, because it should. But that defiention takes away the culture of talking to your dog at the line, when used broadly across all levels... now a dog moving forward and a handler trying to swing his dog to see the birds with normal cues, risks being chraged a controlled break even though the dog was simply enthusiatic and made no effort to retreive. To me, in a weekend end test, there has to be an effort to go for it to be a controlled break. Creeping is creeping and unless it effects the safety of shooting the birds I dont see it as an issue for a hunting dog personally (i.e. the blast cone), and imho should be distingisuhed between a controlled break at all levels. travis

Good post Travis.
This is exactly what I was referring to. Some of us have high bred FC type dogs that we play the HTR game with and those 40 -50 yard birds get them tappingtheir feet, hopping up and down, really focusing on that bire=d that is "right there" and may have to have a HEEL or HERE command to getthem to swing to the next bird. Dog will never go with out command but in order to see the next mark, needs to get refocused. Good judges know what they are setting up and seeing so a simplistic definition ion the weekend tests does not see mto be viable.
However at the Grand, in Master and Senior, it is written in the rules, no talking so that is the rule. Pretty black and white. If you talk you are out.
Got to know the rules as well as your dog.
MP

The rules for The Grand state that voice or whisle commands may be used to steady the hunting retriever.

Again, I do not agree with the "policy" regarding the Grand (speaking to your dog during forward movement gets you a hook).....but hey! won't be the first time the written rules and philosophy of HRC as a whole takes a back seat to "The Grand"....

but...again...I digress

You cannot speak to your dog in any AKC field event once you call for your birds....

I asked The Right Rev. Jerry Mann (Director of Performance Events for AKC) why is it that its O.K. to speak softly to your dog to on the honor bucket in master, and that is not a CB, but to speak to the dog on the line at all is automatically judged as an effort to prevent a controlled break. He just sort of looked at me like I had 3 heads. So, no answer for that little philosophical inconsistency.

There is nothing in this world I have against the Grand and the MN. I want to run them both as time permits. However, due to "test creep" they are becoming the tails that wag the dog, if we are all not careful.

Alan, the Grand is judged differently because it is another level, with a complete set of rules all to itself. The Grand's orignal purpose was to give people with hrch dogs something to do with their dogs AFTER they completed their championship and wanted to go further with their dogs. Which is why I'm ok with another set of rules, and why I don't want blowblack from the Grand filtering into weekend tests. There is a lot of good things, GREAT things, that have slowly filtered down into the weekend tests in what we would like to see (i.e. clicking the safety off once the birds are in the air is a great example... its not in the rulebook but it is a good ideal so we suggest it.. now its in the seminars, so I supposed it could be enforced... but thats just an example). The philsiophy of clean marking series and using terrain and wind instead of simlpy using trained marking concepts is another filter down... not enforceable but a good ideal. But when we start using our cut and dried explinations we use at the Grand to make something black and white, when it ought to be a shade of gray an approiately trained judge can decide on, I think we've gone the wrong way.

I really think the comment the OP is asking about, was probably not intended to be taken literally, bY the amount of razzing the presenter took that day, and all weekend. Which is exactly why I think this is a great discussion.

HRC has grown tremendously and changed tremendously since Ive been involved for 12 years or so, and I think both are for the better. And we're going to keep on growing as we got a great product and program, and our growth in the ne and the west are proof of that, and all the more reason we need to be as consisant as possible in our interptations of our rules.

goosebruce wrote:Alan, the Grand is judged differently because it is another level, with a complete set of rules all to itself. The Grand's orignal purpose was to give people with hrch dogs something to do with their dogs AFTER they completed their championship and wanted to go further with their dogs. Which is why I'm ok with another set of rules, and why I don't want blowblack from the Grand filtering into weekend tests. There is a lot of good things, GREAT things, that have slowly filtered down into the weekend tests in what we would like to see (i.e. clicking the safety off once the birds are in the air is a great example... its not in the rulebook but it is a good ideal so we suggest it.. now its in the seminars, so I supposed it could be enforced... but thats just an example). The philsiophy of clean marking series and using terrain and wind instead of simlpy using trained marking concepts is another filter down... not enforceable but a good ideal. But when we start using our cut and dried explinations we use at the Grand to make something black and white, when it ought to be a shade of gray an approiately trained judge can decide on, I think we've gone the wrong way.

I really think the comment the OP is asking about, was probably not intended to be taken literally, bY the amount of razzing the presenter took that day, and all weekend. Which is exactly why I think this is a great discussion.

HRC has grown tremendously and changed tremendously since Ive been involved for 12 years or so, and I think both are for the better. And we're going to keep on growing as we got a great product and program, and our growth in the ne and the west are proof of that, and all the more reason we need to be as consisant as possible in our interptations of our rules.

Trav

I know it is suppose to be another level BUT if the only change is the rules it is still a finished test . If you run the Master National you will be judged just as you were when you qualified . I know they aint gona change the rules , im just giving my little ole opinion .

And yes i know it stinks

Now shall we start another thread about where to throw a diversion bird ? (I) know what the judges/handlers rule book says , BUT in the last couple of years i have had and seen dogs hit and almost hit with the bird . How should that be judged (IF) the dog has the diversion thrown in its face ?

now thats funny rite ther, i dont care who you are. im gonna have to steal that one to email to my wife every now and then.

Alan,

The rules at the MN are the same as a weekend Master test, from what I understand.

The rules, distances, standards, etc are different for the Grand. It is not 4 Finished tests and an Upland. The Grand standards and requirements are a step above Finished, like Finished is a step above Seasoned.

Janet

jksboxofchocolates wrote:Alan,

The rules at the MN are the same as a weekend Master test, from what I understand.

The rules, distances, standards, etc are different for the Grand. It is not 4 Finished tests and an Upland. The Grand standards and requirements are a step above Finished, like Finished is a step above Seasoned.

Janet

I know i just felt left out and wanted to get in the conversation

OK so there has been some talk about the Grand rules being different but I wanted to let the discussion run to see if anybody (that actually runs the Grand) would point this out.
I know I'm gonna shoot myself for doing this......I swore I wouldn't get involved in a discussion about Grand rules.......but oh well.....
Fuel for the fire....

The "Grand Rules" specifically say that you can talk to your dog at the line (under the section on steadiness)

III. The Grand Hunting Retriever is required to be steady at the retrieving line. At the retrieving line, the hunting retriever may NOT be touched to steady. After signaling “ready”, the Handler will be able to quietly, and in a non-intimidating manner, continue to talk to the dog. Excessive verbal commands will be judged as lack of control and may be grounds for failure.

Maybe its just me but I'm having a hard time twisting that one into a pretzel that says....if you say "sit", it becomes a CB. Is saying "Sit" once or twice being taken as "excessive verbal commands"? Even if so, the rule says it will be judged "lack of control" and says nothing about it being a CB.

Don't mean to be readin rules to ya but if we are talkin about "what the rules say" then let's get it right.
The people that run in it know "what is" and "what isn't" but that is a direct contradiction.... imo

Mike Perry wrote:Just looked at E Ark premium. Think I will pass.
I see Jason Christopher and Charles Dwyer will be judging.
Rumor is they both take a lot of notes.
See you at the line
MP

Note to self: "Mike has already admitted that he has high powered FT bred dogs running HT's that tap their toes as mentioned in a post on MSDUCKS" "He shall be guilty of a CB by way of admission" "I will assume that even if his dogs do not have a controlled break while under judgement by myself & Jason there will be one somewhere down the line and we must nip this in the bud"

cdwyer wrote:

Mike Perry wrote:Just looked at E Ark premium. Think I will pass.
I see Jason Christopher and Charles Dwyer will be judging.
Rumor is they both take a lot of notes.
See you at the line
MP

Note to self: "Mike has already admitted that he has high powered FT bred dogs running HT's that tap their toes as mentioned in a post on MSDUCKS" "He shall be guilty of a CB by way of admission" "I will assume that even if his dogs do not have a controlled break while under judgement by myself & Jason there will be one somewhere down the line and we must nip this in the bud"

Thanks Charles for saving me a bunch of $ on entry fees. I guess you are going to take a lot of notes also and pencil whip the entire field.

See you in a couple weeks at the "Seasoned Grand".
MP

cdwyer wrote:
Note to self: "Mike has already admitted that he has high powered FT bred dogs running HT's that tap their toes as mentioned in a post on MSDUCKS" "He shall be guilty of a CB by way of admission" "I will assume that even if his dogs do not have a controlled break while under judgement by myself & Jason there will be one somewhere down the line and we must nip this in the bud"

...but if he doesn't say sit..................


just sayin'........

CF wrote:

cdwyer wrote:
Note to self: "Mike has already admitted that he has high powered FT bred dogs running HT's that tap their toes as mentioned in a post on MSDUCKS" "He shall be guilty of a CB by way of admission" "I will assume that even if his dogs do not have a controlled break while under judgement by myself & Jason there will be one somewhere down the line and we must nip this in the bud"

...but if he doesn't say sit..................


just sayin'........

Im going to be sporting two pencils out of my hat; I'll be the new golden Canadian guy. I just need to find out what brand of gum he chews?