Training question -- Decheating

[B3]

In an advanced dog your not talking about teaching so much as your maintaining the standard. You have to read his intent.....

if its over his head or you've taken a season off from working on these issues I'd use attrition

if he's been taught and takes a PIL as a copout then it may be No-HERE BURN. If its further out after a good line then likely toot nick cast but the above is too situation dependent to say on the net.

All of the above is very different from making a PLACE hot with the collar which is not teaching or maintaining straight lines. Its simply making him afraid to go to certain places.

Just my thoughts-it could be wrong,

Bill

[Duck Chaser]

good advice so far.. I'll throw in one thing. Unless your dog gives 100% effort all the time, you'll eventually give corrections for lack of it, as mentioned with more advanced dogs. Even though they are "getting it", which is cool to accomplish/see, don't be a slave to cheating work. Even more advanced dogs need a break, therapy marks etc. When you're a part timer/am., and you get a couple days a week to do waterwork, its hard make yourself do anything that doesn't seem like progress. Balance IS progress. With a high desire/drive dog, it can be a fine line that you may not see coming, and don't want to cross.

[BrettG]

de-cheating with making the bank hot is exactly where I departed from dobbs method. I didn't think it was FAIR. I think by being fair to a dog, you can teach him to do the right thing, and by consistancy he will do the right thing thru repetetion. Decheating by buring a dog off a hot bank makes a dog take water by being scared not too, and dogs might do a lot of things scared, but they do not do GREAT things being scared. Not saying it wont work, and for a basic hunting dog, its probably enough, but for an advanced dog, it creates an anixety that is not ideal for teaching GREAT things. travis

I've seen this method used and agree with Travis. You are better off showing the dog the correct way and then repetition will instill honesty. Just forming a good habit. Attrition is the best form of correction when teaching the dog not to cheat.

[goosebruce]

to clarify, an experienced dog might very well warrent a correction for a CAST refusual, and a very expereined dog might warrent a correction for a black and white cheat. But that is not the same as making a place hot. In fact, generall in water if a dog gets a big correction for something, I willl find a reason to make a dog go back thru that area on purpose before I put it up, to make sure the dog understands the correction was not place specific, it was because of there actions.

dc is right on with balance. A steady diet of cheaters with no balance can make water a bummer, and actually make problems worse, not better. travis

[EvanG]

A key to any retriever skill development and/or maintenance is balance. Don't over do anything. Don't do just one thing. I don't think you can run too many cheating singles, for example, unless you are ingnoring your marks and other skills in behalf of them. If all you're running is cheaters in each day's training, you will soon begin to erode your dog's abilities through the law of diminishing returns.

Try to start each day with marks...some kind of marks...almost any will do. They run whatever drill work or set up that your training journal has told you the dog needs most. If possible, finish the day with more marks.

EvanG

[Starhill Labs]

I agree with Evan and Bruce on about everything they discussed. I remember throwing birds as a kid for Danny, John Parrot, Terry Grayson, and Omar and I can tell you for sure that all these guys learned from their mistakes in the 70s as well as their successes. The collars were horrendous then which is why I got completely away from collars for about 20 years until I learned that they had changed significantly (I also got away from the field trials before the advent of hunt tests only because life was kicking in gear right after college). I remember training in an area (about 1978-79) and a dog curling up in the field yelping in agony and no one was pushing the transmitter. Come to find out we were near an airport training and as the pilots keyed their radios they set off the collars. I also remember slingshots and marbles and I don't know anyone using them anymore. We really need to thank those that came before us and gave us better insight into more refined methods we have today. Now I will get off my soapbox.

[Bayou Beagle]

So how many times do you do cheating in sequential training sessions versus tuning up. Every other day or every day for a week or what. Hardest parr of being parttime is knowing how long to work on a concept to teach

[EvanG]

So how many times do you do cheating in sequential training sessions versus tuning up. Every other day or every day for a week or what. Hardest parr of being parttime is knowing how long to work on a concept to teach

It really depends upon what you got out of any one drill. Sometimes you will set one up that looks like a real killer, and your dog will smash it. Other times you may think you've been too easy, and that your dog may not get much out of this one. Then your dog implodes on it.

If you got a lot of work out of getting the route ironed out you really should consider running it for about 3-5 days on a daily basis before builidng a new one somewhere else. In the meantime, the "balance" of training should come through running lots of marks. That's what they live for. If your dog has been a little bugged in some difficult drill, run more singles. If he's up and confident, run a few more multiples and put a little more difficulty in them.

"Balance, Daniel-san!"

EvanG

[goosebruce]

Evan made a funny... cool.

young grasshopper, go forth and sling birds... travis