another question for the forum

[the doctor]

doc, are you one of the chosen ones?

I am a sinner saved by Gods grace through faith in Jesus Christ as my needed savior and according to Scritpure that makes me one of the chosen.

R u?

the doc

[Caller1]

The Bible is there/here to show us Gods will. Thats what it is. The breathed word of God. Its is full of directions and instruction from Him. It is also full of men turning from God, making the wrong decisions, and mans sinning. His "directive will" is the expession of His perfect plan. This is the things he wants man to do. His "permissive will" includes all the things he allows. He has enough power to make all men do exactly what He wants. But instead He made man with a will and allows him to use it even in opposition to God's way. God's directive will for Adam and Eve in the Garden was to enjoy the fruits but not eat ofthe Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet He allowed him to eat of it. He permitted them to sin; He did not cause them to sin, In the same way, we cannot blame God for sin or its consequences in our lives. He allows it, He does not direct it. Satan tempts us. JAmes tells us that he can tempt us only when we are drawn away by our own desires. Then temptation enters, we yield,a nd sin bears fruit. It all starts within us.

God's "overruling will" is when he brings events into our lives to cause us to change our plans.

[Caller1]

He did predetermine certain things. He predetermined a means of salvation through Christ, the unique position and possessions of those who are saved. He also predetermined that man could have a will and be responsible for his use of it!!!!

[Caller1]

Can He make a rock too heavy for himself to lift?

[StraightUp]

doc, are you one of the chosen ones?

I am a sinner saved by Gods grace through faith in Jesus Christ as my needed savior and according to Scritpure that makes me one of the chosen.

R u?

the doc

Yes. (I chose to recieve His grace when I heard of it ). Peace, brother.

[whitesand]

A co-worker and I got into this conversation a couple of months ago while discussing her search for a new church. Honesty, this was one of those issues where I didn't know what I believed. In speaking with her I found that I believed both. Then I felt like it wasn't right for me to believe both and that I had to "pick a side". However, I believe that Christ calls/draws us to himself through the Holy Spirit and that He (God) has given me/us the free will to walk away from that call or surrender to it. I also believe that before the foundations of the world God new my name and had a plan for me.
In short, election/predestination/free-will are all doctrines of man that is an attempt by man to put his arms around a God that is without measure.
Charles Spurgeon said that free will and election are like two parallel lines that don't ever seem to touch. But he said that if you follow them far enough, all the way up to Heaven, then they do meet each other. When asked how he reconciles free will and election, Spurgeon replied 'You don't have to reconcile friends!" (last paragraph was taken from www.jesusplusnothing.com).

Isaiah 55:7-9

God is Good!

[StraightUp]

Good observation whitesand. I really think this is too big for man's mind to wrap around. But, at the same time, I'm not ready to stand up and preach the gospel to a crowd this sunday thinking that there is NO HOPE for some of them.

[the doctor]

I agree it is bigger than we are completely capable of understanding however...predestination and God's chosen few are Biblical (Romans 8:29-30 Eph 1:4-11 Jeremiah 1:4 2 Thes 2:13 to name a few)

I have yet to see free will other than some feeble attempts relating to the fall of man (this is where I think it become too difficult to understand) in fact if you Google Free Will referenced in the Bible you mostly get links rebuking the doctrine, however if you Google Predesitination or Gods chosen few as referenced in the Bible there is quite a bit of support

if you truly believe that God is all knowing and all powerful then you cant do anything to resist His call and you dont have anything to do with your own salvation...the thought that you do only brings pride and self righteousness into the equation

and as to Caller1 response my Bible doesnt elude to all the "Different wills of God" in fact when we pray as He taught in Matthew we ask that "Thy/Your will be done" not Thy will with the exception of what we control

the doc

[StraightUp]

Doc said--if you truly believe that God is all knowing and all powerful then you cant do anything to resist His call and you dont have anything to do with your own salvation...the thought that you do only brings pride and self righteousness into the equation

I think that is a legitimate point. But if you take that road don't you have to say the same about every human concern and activity? If God's grace is irresistable to the elect and they have no choice, why do they have choices about their behavior? I've known lots of Calvinists and none are perfect, they have (like me) made some poor choices(sinned).

Maybe I can't see the forrest for the trees. It seems to me if God totally dictates my eternal destiny without my choice, He ought to be blamed for my sin too.

By the way, thanks for this discussion. I'm really not a debate kind of guy, but I have enjoyed the posts...

[the doctor]

agreed Straight Up...healthy discussion and not trying to debate just want to bring some points to light and I think it is good to understadn the beliefs and values other Christian denominations

BTW I am Presbyterina if you haven guessed and part of the PCA as oppossed to the PCUSA (big differences there too)

dont believe we can blame God for our sin...in our church we believe we sin because we are sinners (born that way because of ou predecessors Adam and Eve)...not sinners because we sin

question does come up though about how sin came into existence and where Satan came from an did He create Adam and Eve kowing they would sin? he must have but why?

I think they are only choices in our mind...meaning we cant truly comprehend

to use an analogy Caller1 and I have discussed: when I woke up this morning I chose a black shirt to wear (I have it on as I type)...but if God knew from the beginning of time that I would have on a black shirt on Tuesday Novemeber 11, 2008...then it was only a choice in my mind, He already knew

it was Gods plan for me to wear black and I know I cant alter that plan, to think that I could would give me power equal to that of His

to that end we are not puppets as Caller1 has asked but his servants carrying out His perfect plan for us

the doc

[cwink]

I am really liking this discussion. I see both points to the debate, but Doc I have to ask this.

Do you feel guilt when you sin? Because I would think that if you believe that God has a perfect plan for you and that we are only carrying out that plan and everything we do is pre planned. Then we are pre planned to sin, and there is nothing that we can do about it. So there would be no guilt in sin. Correct?

To me that would be a liberating thing. To think that I could just go on with my life and not have to worry about what I did or didn't do. Because every sin I committed was already preplanned by God. So how do I reconcile that sin.

[the doctor]

Jesus reconciled your sin. In Gods eyes your slate is clean....Jesus' death and resurrection cleared it for you. Our debt to Jesus is not one of guilt but a debt of gratitude for the price He paid.

Caller1 and I went down this road as well. This is not a get out of jail free and yes I do feel guilty and ashamed but I also know Jesus washed me of my sins and yes it should be liberating, but we also have a responsibilty to live according to Gods words, His commandments, and the authority He placed over us.

The responsibilty comes from a true love for Christ as oppossed to a relationship we are guilted in to. Remember the murderer on the cross next to Jesus...he is in Heaven! He instructs us to admit our sin and ask for forgiveness. We should strive to live Christ-like but fact is we cant.

If you truly believe He is the Way the Truth and the Life then no amount of good deeds or guilt will get you to Heaven. (Eph 2:8-9)

the doc

[the doctor]

also for purposes of continued discussion, has anyone found any Scripture supporting free will?

the doc

[LawDawg]

I just came across this because the boss has been here all day, but this is a great discussion. the predistination/free will dichotomy has had me in many discussions in my life. I personally am, like doc, a PCA predestination, good knew you before you and the choices you were going to make while you were in the womb kindof guy. do we have free will? no, God knows what we will choose. We just think we have free will because our minds can't comprehend anything else.

The argument usually comes up that if we don't have free will and God predestined people, then God intentionally sends people to Hell. Usually accompanying that argument is a comment like, "I refuse to believe a God that would send His Son to die for some people would send others to Hell."

what say ye?

[cwink]

I just came across this because the boss has been here all day, but this is a great discussion. the predistination/free will dichotomy has had me in many discussions in my life. I personally am, like doc, a PCA predestination, good knew you before you and the choices you were going to make while you were in the womb kindof guy. do we have free will? no, God knows what we will choose. We just think we have free will because our minds can't comprehend anything else.

The argument usually comes up that if we don't have free will and God predestined people, then God intentionally sends people to Hell. Usually accompanying that argument is a comment like, "I refuse to believe a God that would send His Son to die for some people would send others to Hell."

what say ye?

Ok, so let's use this in an example. Let's say you have an addict.. Drug,alchol,sex,pornagraphy, any of today's addictions will work. But this addict says I am going to try my best to kick this habit, no more drugs, no more drinks, no more pornography, no more cheating on my wife or whatever his issue is. But from time to time he fails. Your saying that if he slips up, it is OK, because God knows he is going to slip up and that he should just ask for forgivness and move on. What is to keep him from just doing it over and over and asking forgivness every time.

And what good are prayers. I mean if I pray for someone to get better. It really doesn't matter because no matter what I do, I can't effect the outcome.